What if the Others really ARE good guys?
We have been presented with a very one sided version of events. Most viewers are on the side of the 815ers, seeing the Others as aggressive and hostile. The Others are behaving with no less suspicion and violence than has been exhibited by the 815ers. We are more accepting of Sayid's torturing Ben or of Charlie's killing Ethan because we saw the events leading up to them and feel their actions were justified. Also, the tailies attacked Sawyer, Jin and Michael without provocation. When we later found out what the tailies had been through, we came to accept their actions. Why presume that the Others have any less reason to be afraid of (or agresssive towards) strangers? We don't actually yet know what drives the Others, what their purpose is. Maybe they are, or were, part of the Dharma Initiative. Maybe they had to break free, maybe they went through the same kind of situation that the 815ers are going through. For example, Cindy the flight attendant, who felt as though she was being terrorized by the Others, but now something has happened to her, and lo and behold, she is one of them. Lost is a demonstration of how easily a person can come to accept what they had previously considered to be abhorrent.
I believe most of the Others are in fact relatively good, decent people. However, Ben made a reference to having an "inner circle" of sorts in "Man From Talahassee". I think this group has their own ulterior motives and will do anything to accomplish them. Notice Tom's reaction when Jack lists some of the things the Others have done? Tom obviosuly knew about Claire's kidnapping and why it happened, but he seems startled by Jack's claim that Charlie was hung. Seems like Tom isn't aware of everything that's going on, and not surprisingly. After all, he couldn't be a member of Ben's inner circle since when Ana Lucia suggests that Tom is the Others' leader, Ben says, "Him? He's no one, nothing!"
Of course, whether the Others are "good" or not really depends on your views on moral relativism. The writers have cited Watchmen as a major influence on the show, in which an unspeakable and vile act has wonderful results. Note: Don't bother asking me what the act is. Not to be rude, but I simply refuse to spoil what I consider the most powerful climax in a comic book ever. Seriosuly, it's that good. You can probably find Watchmen at a library, or a book store or comic store (it's about $20). You might pick up a few other LOST parallels as well, such as a character who has similar abilities that Desmond has.
Getting back to the inner circle thing, it seems Richard Alpert is a member as well. I believe Ben told Richard to suggest to John using Sawyer, because Ben didn't want to give up on John just yet. Then again, maybe Ben was indeed through with Locke since his legs are finally starting to work again but Richard chose to help Locke anyway because he felt sorry for him or honsetly does believe Locke is "special". Well, I expect next episode will probably adress some of these questions.
hmmm, good point… moral relativism. well, i suppose we shall see, now wont we :-P
Yes, the concepts of "good" and "bad" are all relative. A character that is all good or all bad is a one-dimensional character. And most of the survivors are INCREDIBLY flawed. They constantly need to run away (Kate) or fix something (Jack). They are cowardly (Desmond) or vengeful (Sawyer). They are unwilling to let go (Locke). And they've all done horrible things in their past life: Murder, torture, drug abuse, theft. But being brought to the Island has made them better human beings, for the most part.
On the flip side, the Others can be pretty decent people. Ethan cared for Claire, Juliet impregnated her sister. Even Ben (the slimeball) is a loving and devoted father. When we see Ben's flashback, we'll realize that the Others aren't "good" or "bad," they just have different goals.
EXACTLY EXACTLY
i think it was Desmond who pointed out the survivors killed more of the others then they have killed the survivors
Awww…. how cute. Someone's been reading Nietzsche.
Barf barf barf.
(So glad I found this group, lol)
Anyway, yes, I agree here as well. I wouldn't be surprised if in the end, the "Others" aren't as bad as we actually think. I remember it being mentionned in the podcasts that, actually, besides the Henry Gale-thing and the Magic Box metaphor, Ben hasn't really lied about anything at all. We just suppose him to be a sneaky deceptive bastard because he's the "antagonist" to the Losties, our protagonists.
Also, we're not really sure of what happened between Ethan and Michael are we? He claims he doesn't remember a thing… Here's a quick scenario, Ethan knocks Charlie out in the jungle and it is Danielle who hangs him to blame it on the Others, for some unknown reason. Rousseau has had a conflicting story from the beginning: it just doesn't add up! So it could be possible. And it'd be somehow "unexpected."
Just one small detail, and I do *not* disagree with the Others being "good guys" in a way, but remember: Room 23. Sure, Nancy seems all happy now but then again she could have been exposed to an intensive mkultra-like treatment. Who knows.
Also, going on a tangent here, but wtf happened to karl?
c'mon fuyi, so he didnt get the Nietzsche thing down 100%. his point was still fine…. you seem like a pretty smart gal, what do you think?
nancy, you mean cindy the flight attendant? and what happened between ethan and michael?
hahaha, yes, sorry, I got my names all mixed up for a second.
I meant Cindy the flight attendant.
I meant Charlie, not Michael (unforgivable mistake, my bad).
Does my post make sense now?
ahh. hmm, maybe, but it feels like that would be too drawn out and convoluted, even for lost.
okay, let me give you all an example: let's say, i somehow go back in time, to 1933, and i kill a man in berlin, germany. boohoo, im a horrible person, i go to jail. end of story. but what if that person who i kill just happens to be named adolf hitler, and by killing him, i basically save the lives of 50 million people? i'm not such a bad person after all, am i?
the point is, we don't know WHY the others are doing what they do- maybe they are the remnants of the Initiative, and they seek to save all of humanity. if that were the case, if the others were doing some sort of critical research to save the planet, then yeah charlie's death and the death of others would, quite honestly, be acceptable losses in the battle to save mankind.
that's all im saying is that, since we dont know who or what drives the others, we really can't draw conclusions.
and yes, they APPEAR to be evil and manipulative, but i think if lost has taught us one thing, it's that appearances can be deceiving
Yes, we have definitely been presented with really only one side. We have experienced each of the 815ers struggle to survive on island and have seen there back stories. So of course we are more sympathetic to them and easily brush pass there troubled history. But now that we are starting to learn more about Others and I know, personally I am becoming a fan. Most people I have talked to love “friendly Tom” even after his shady introduction to show. Plus after seeing Juliet’s back-story I can really sympathize with the actions she did (which, I’ll concede is not a popular view).
I agree with Bobby (as always) I think the lesser ranked others are generally good people. While the upper ranks are more corrupt. And Ben may not have lied that much but he manipulates A LOT more, and it’s definitely ruining a lot of people’s lives. Though recently I do think there is a rift coming up in the others camp. I actually believe that Ben was trying to ditch Locke. And that, Alpert is trying to exploit the situation. He seemed a little critical of Ben when he was talking to Locke. So it wouldn’t surprise me if Ben is very shocked and perhaps a little upset when Locke returns with daddy on his back. But I guess we just have to wait till everything plays out to see who’s really the good guys.
There seem to be a lot of religious references in the show and theres definitely something with good/evil with the smoke monster and other things. I think I heard the writers say something about us seeing the otheres in a whole new light at some point. I think maybe the whole point of the show will be to eventually get across some point about good vs. evil and being able to tell the difference and why things can be percieved in the wrong way.
well as someone said, there is no DEFINITE GOOD or DEFINITE evil it's all relative.
for example, here's a concise story: i killed a man. (i never actually have, but let's say for argument's sake that i have)
but there is more to the story: i killed a man who broke into my house and was threatening my children and wife.
see what i mean?
Actually, I've never read Nietzsche in my life. The closest I've come is reading Superman comic books.
About room 23. We don't KNOW for a fact that what happens there has anything to do with brainwashing. We have all just assumed that it does because it's similar to what was used in a Clockwork Orange.
BTW, who the hell is Nancy?
See, the counter theory is, that if you kill Hitler, someone even worse would have risen up to take his place. You may be under the impression that you've saved lives, but in the end, you could end up costing the world even more lives.
I've been saying almost this exact same thing since I started coming to Lost boards. The others may do things that we consider wrong, but we don't know what causes them to believe their actions are acceptable. The lives of the many(in this case, all of humanity), most assuradly, is more important than the lives of the few.
Check this video out… if you haven't already seen it. It backs your theory of the needs of the many outway the needs of the view. It's also pretty interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/wat
shit! what the hell was that about?! so maybe it has all been an experiment after all and the others are dharma
Maybe Ben was the first child of the dharma experiments
the plot thickens.,,
also how the hell have I not seen this before?
It's been around a while, it was a part of the LOST Experience. However, the second part of the video takes place in 2006, so that is not the Others gathered there.
The Others and DHARMA are two seperate things because Mikhail said so and the writers confirmed that Mikhail was telling the truth about DHARMA's history.
It's things like this that make me wish every Lost viewer listened to the podcasts.
If only such a world existed, my friend. Heck, they don't even have to listen to the whole thing, DarkUFO's website lists the major reveals of the podcast below the audio player.
Haha Yeah, everyone should just bookmark Dark's blog like I have. It would make everything so much easier. Unfortunatly, people also seem to forget things that happened on the show. So maybe listening to the podcasts won't help everyone.
Yeah!
Here's the body count, according to Lostpedia:
The survivors have killed 7 Others. Charlie killed Ethan, Ana-Lucia killed Goodwin (and an Other who attacked her on the first day), Eko killed 2 Others (which is why he had that funky beard), Sawyer killed an Other that was chasing him in the Season 2 finale, and Sun killed Colleen, Pickett's wife.
Assuming the people the Others kidnapped aren't dead, they have only killed two. Goodwin killed Nathan, and Ethan killed Scott (a background character) in season 1.
Right, but then again, Michael was found, nearly dead, in the middle of the jungle.
And they also shot Sawyer, (which could have killed him, I don't think the Others are such good marksmen as to aim precisely for the shoulder in the dark) but I think he pulled his gun first.
Again, I agree that the Others are most likely good guys but let's not overlook the fact that some of them might be… uhm… not that good?
That could explain why there are two factions of Others, and why Ben is losing his "mystical" connection with the island (tumor, etc). Just a thought.
Sawyer was shot in the sholder. Not exactly a fatal wound. The others can't be blamed for his infection, as it probably happened while in Ana's little tiger pit.
Sawyer did indeed pull his gun first. Which means the person who shot him is not only a good shot, but also quite a bit faster on the draw than Sawyer.
I don't think anyone is suggesting ALL the others are good. But it seems clear to me that most of them do not agree with Ben's actions.
Apologies but not all of us have time to listen to podcasts
They're 20 minutes long. If you have an hour a week to dedicate to watching Lost, and you regularly post on here I think you can clear 20 mins a week.
Locke's father HAD to die! and ben was looking for someone to kill the guy!
any good reasons?
what I want to say is that people wanting others to be dead can't be good people;)
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